As always, I like to address my friend Hoverfrog's comments to my post. For those of you who are new to my blog, Hoverfrog is a friendly atheist who likes to debate with me on my posts about God/Christianity/Religion. I don't mind in the least -- he does it in a well-written, non-accusatory way. His comments are always welcomed and appreciated, because they give me a chance to address those items that some might agree with or find to be confusing. Here's Hover's comment:

hoverfrog said...

The afterlife is one of those things that's always bothered me about theists. The church tells you to dedicate your life to it and after you die you'll be rewarded. The details of the reward are vague and uninspiring at best but you're still expected to hope for it.

I have one life of some three score years and ten, maybe more, maybe less. I want to spend that life living, not wasting it for some hope. I want to live a good life with a free conscience and do more good than harm while I live. My hopes and aspirations are for now and for my children and my children's children. They aren't for me after I die. That just seems like a waste to me.

You ask what drives people to be good. Honestly I think if you are driven to do good only by the prospect of a reward then your good acts are selfish. If you do good because of a fear of divine punishment then your good acts are motivated by self interest and are therefore selfish. If your actions are based on need and helping others then you aren't being selfish. The act itself is important, not the higher purpose that you give it.

I'm probably not explaining myself well enough. I think that the idea of heaven and hell removes altruism from an act if that is your focus.

Lastly, a heaven where I was eternally separated from those I love would be a hell to me. I don't want it and I don't need it.


Allow me to reply:

1) "The church tells you to dedicate your life to it and after you die you'll be rewarded. The details of the reward are vague and uninspiring at best but you're still expected to hope for it."

Wow. Vague and uninspiring? I have to honestly shake my head at that. Obviously, Hov, you're hard to impress. A promise of everlasting life, forever and ever, sitting next to God with no worries, no pain, no suffering, no misery is "uninspiring"? To me, a promise of a perfect existence full of love, beauty, laughter, joy and knowledge seems SO AWESOME. What could be greater than that???? Trust me... some days when I'm dealing with butt-head drivers, rude salespeople, cold wind, bad snowstorms, sore throats, lots of bills and no time to do anything, the only thing that keeps me going is knowing that one day, it will all be SO good. Sure, it might be a little vague, but that's perfectly okay with me. The Bible states often that it's so awesome, our small minds can't even comprehend it. The Bible also uses the analogy of human minds are like that of children. If I use the same analogy, giving us a description of Heaven would be like trying to tell a 4 year old what Walt Disney World will be like. There's just no way. You can say it will be "awesome" and "exciting" and "cool" -- and maybe throw in a few details -- but there's absolutely no way that an adult could completely convey the entire concept and reality of Disney World to a toddler. It's the same with Heaven.

2) "I want to spend that life living, not wasting it for some hope. I want to live a good life with a free conscience and do more good than harm while I live. My hopes and aspirations are for now and for my children and my children's children. They aren't for me after I die. That just seems like a waste to me."

Hov, you ask any one of my friends, family members or co-workers if it seems like I am "wasting" my life. I am one of the happiest, spunkiest, most-loving people I know. I'm not bragging -- it's just the truth. I LIVE. I have more fun, more experiences, more laughter, more fulfillment, more truth in my life than I ever thought could be possible. There is no way I would ever use the word "waste" in my life in any sense of the word. Sure it's good to live with a free conscience and do more harm than good here on Earth. But being Christian is taking it one-step further -- being Christian prepares your next life as well. I have hopes and aspirations now, too. But I don't have kids. Probably never will. A lot of people don't/won't have kids, or even have a mate. Who are those hopes and aspirations for? A bunch of strangers they don't know? The next generation or two? Maybe. But as a Christian, do you think I'm not doing that now? I get emails from people all the time who thank me or ask me more questions about my own experiences. If I can help just one person find God, then all of this has been worth it. If I've helped just one person take a step closer, then I am thrilled. Hopefully I've touched more than one person. That isn't for me when I die. That is for THEM when THEY die. I'm not doing it for me -- I'm doing it for them. I do not expect or want any reward or kudos for what I am doing. I just want people to find God. Pure and simple. I'll say it again -- not one thing I do in my life as a Christian is ever a waste.

3) "You ask what drives people to be good. Honestly I think if you are driven to do good only by the prospect of a reward then your good acts are selfish. If you do good because of a fear of divine punishment then your good acts are motivated by self interest and are therefore selfish. If your actions are based on need and helping others then you aren't being selfish. The act itself is important, not the higher purpose that you give it."

First of all, let me make it clear. There are some religions -- including sects of Christianity -- that say doing good deeds gets you into Heaven. That is not what it says in the Bible, and that is not what I was taught or believe. The only one single way that a person can get into Heaven is by believing in Christ. That's it. So by believing in Christ, I already have my reward. I do not do good things for fear of divine punishment -- it just doesn't work that way. If I never did a good deed at all, yet I did have an honest, true relationship with Christ, I would still get into Heaven. True, diligent belief is the only condition that God put on us. Otherwise, what's the grading scale? Do a lot of small good deeds equal one big good deed? What constitutes a "good" deed from a "great" deed? It just doesn't work like that. God forgives, and He knows we are human. Deeds are the same with sin. Some do a lot, some don't. But that's all extra -- the ONLY requirement that you need to walk through those gates is your true, undeniable belief in Christ.

My acts of kindness and compassion are absolutely altruistic like yours -- but again as a Christian, they go one step further. I am helping my fellow neighbor because I love them and care about them and want to help. But I also want to please my Father. I'm going to put this in the context of children again. It sounds like you have kids, so let's look at it objectively. You want your kids to get along and love each other. It does your heart good to see them being unselfish and helping each other out. Sure, the kids might do it for you at times, because they like to see their father happy with them and proud of them. But those kids will also realize that it feels good to them, too, and that it's nice to help their siblings. And they realize that the more they help their siblings, the easier it is to get along with them. Actually, life is easier altogether, because brothers and sisters are happy and content, and dad is happy and content. As they continue to grow, they do those things naturally and as second nature, even when you aren't there to praise them directly or pat them on the head. And before you know it, they are continuously happy and good and loving to each other for no reason other than for the fact that they want to be. You have taught them, by positive reinforcement, to be kind and love one another. And this is awesome in your eyes, because you absolutely love your children and want them to have a good, easy life with lots of love and happiness. Does that make sense? (Okay, in the real world, siblings are rarely that way. But you get the analogy...) Right now, as a new Christian, I am definitely going out of my way to try to help my friends, family and neighbors. Partially I am doing this to please the Lord my Father, but also as I do it, I realize that I LOVE being this way. I adore helping others and giving lots of love, compassion, friendship, time and money. I do it in God's name, because He taught me to be that way. But I also do it from the heart, because I want to. Never, ever in all of the good I try to do for others do I ever think it will get me a "higher" place in Heaven. It doesn't work that way -- my spot is already reserved. I'm not looking to "impress" or "suck up" to God. I don't need to. He loves me like He loves all of "His Children" -- equally and completely. I am doing this for myself, and for others.

And I am here, saying all of this and doing all of this, just so that others can reserve their spot as well. And so that others can also know just how amazing it is to be a child of God.

4) "Lastly, a heaven where I was eternally separated from those I love would be a hell to me. I don't want it and I don't need it."

You know what? I detest politics. I really do. At least here in America. All of the politicians are shady and corrupt... no one really cares about our country -- they just plan ways to be snarkier in the election process (while spending billions of dollars). It's just awful. I refuse to have anything to do with it. I know men have fought and died for our right to vote, but it's just become too convoluted and corrupt. I refuse to acknowledge the presidential candidates, nor will I vote for any of them. I don't like them... I don't need them... I don't want anything to do with the whole thing. But guess what? One of them is going to be elected president anyway. The election process will still occur every four years whether I like it (or agree with it) or not. And the person that becomes president will have say over what happens to me and my future. At this point, I choose to ignore and fold my arms, scowling and grousing. But the election will still go on. Same thing with the afterlife. It doesn't really matter whether you want it, like it or need it. It will still happen. You say that it would suck to see that your love ones didn't make to Heaven. But wouldn't be be worse to know that you could've helped them to get there? Or even more worse than that, don't you think it would be even absolutely awful to see that your loved ones ended up in that "other place" with you???? Remember, there's no sadness or misery in Heaven. It's all so grand and amazing that we can't comprehend it. No one is even sure if we'll recognize each other as anything but people of God. But there is definitely sadness and misery in Hell, and I think it would be pretty tough to see your loved ones there instead. It's all about choices. Whether you like it or not, there are only two places you can go. Just like I have a choice to stand up and vote for someone, or campaign for someone to affect my future the way I'd like it to be... YOU have a choice to determine which place will be your destination. You have chosen to deny and ignore. So have I.

So... McCain, Clinton or Obama... which one will be my future? I bet someone else can tell me before I'll know myself, because I refuse to acknowledge it. In my mind they don't exist. But that's silly, isn't it??? My mind obviously doesn't know the truth...

Thanks, Hov, for the opportunity to elaborate further...